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Help[Facts] Spanish brothers
According to a birth certificate, the following two men are brothers. How is it that they have different surnames? Is there any tradition relating to the eldest child taking a different part of the family name? I'm looking at 'Roque POMARES' and 'Antonio ALARCONE' in the 1870's.
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Replies
There is no tradition on taking different surnames in the Latin American or Spanish cultures. I would considered this case, simply as Roque and Antonio being half brothers, sharing the same mother but different fathers. As simple as that. It could also be that one took his mother's maiden name and the other took his father's surname, but I would say, that is a long stretch. In Spanish descending cultures, it is quite important that the children bear the Father's surname and in second position, the mother's maiden name. When a child has only one surname, it is regularly assumed that this child/person is a bastard (meaning that "his father did not acknowledge his existence" and not as an insult. Clarifying, just in case...)
Have you searched for Antonio and Roque's parents names? That could give a whole new perspective as in why the different surnames...
Hope this helps,
Magia.
Have you searched for Antonio and Roque's parents names? That could give a whole new perspective as in why the different surnames...
Hope this helps,
Magia.
This message was edited 11/11/2004, 8:18 AM
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It could be due to cparice... Or maybe one of them was not a recognized child... Furthermore... In which sense are they called brothers? It's not part of the... mmm... "tradition"? It's not part of the tradition the difference of surnames between brothers but specific cases may lead to brothers having differente surnames, names, etc. Pretty much like specific cases can lead to one brother being born in England and then being raised speaking Hindi and another being born in Portugal and then being raised speaking Spanish. Many new surnames and "bloodlines" have spawned from these kind of cases... And they always demand an inspection upon the specific case to understand it... I guess they must be historical characters so... A historian proficient in them might explain it better.
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It could be that one is going by the mother's maiden name and one is going by the father's surname. I work with brothers: Marcos Peòa Alejandro Peòa, and Julio Suarez. For whatever reason, I haven't asked yet, Julio uses his mother's maiden name. Technically the brothers' last name is Peòa-Suarez. Julio is the youngest brother, Alejandro is the oldest.
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I don't know what happened but that should be Pena, with a tilde over the 'n'.
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Justina, that wiggly line is not called a "tilde"
A "tilde" is an oblique straight line used to indicate that the vowel which holds it must be pronounced with certain emphasis which, althought I'm a Spanish-speaker, my ear has quite a great problem discerning... The line in question is not a minor modification on the "n" in the same way that the "O" is not a letter upon which the line in "Q" (visualize the small "" added to the "O" for most fonts; I particularly find this font's "Q" faulty... But it does not affects the point I'm making) makes a minor difference... In other words... The "ñ" and the "n" are letters as different as "m" and "n" as "w", "v", "b" and "f" or as "s", "z", "c", "ç", "o" and "q". It stands for the Latin "nn" and for the Italian "gn" sounding sort of like "ni" or "ny" with the "i/y" sound submissively mingled into the "n" sound. It's not a change of emphazis; it's a change of general pronunciation, ethymological derivation (derives from latin roots with "nn" instead of "n" like in "anno" and "ano"), meaning, etc. The "tilde" looks like a smaller version of the "/" the line over the "Ñ" is: "~". (Sorry for being... Pesky?)
A "tilde" is an oblique straight line used to indicate that the vowel which holds it must be pronounced with certain emphasis which, althought I'm a Spanish-speaker, my ear has quite a great problem discerning... The line in question is not a minor modification on the "n" in the same way that the "O" is not a letter upon which the line in "Q" (visualize the small "" added to the "O" for most fonts; I particularly find this font's "Q" faulty... But it does not affects the point I'm making) makes a minor difference... In other words... The "ñ" and the "n" are letters as different as "m" and "n" as "w", "v", "b" and "f" or as "s", "z", "c", "ç", "o" and "q". It stands for the Latin "nn" and for the Italian "gn" sounding sort of like "ni" or "ny" with the "i/y" sound submissively mingled into the "n" sound. It's not a change of emphazis; it's a change of general pronunciation, ethymological derivation (derives from latin roots with "nn" instead of "n" like in "anno" and "ano"), meaning, etc. The "tilde" looks like a smaller version of the "/" the line over the "Ñ" is: "~". (Sorry for being... Pesky?)
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Thanks for the info, Iris
I'm a native Spanish speaker and I must confess, I had no idea what the ~ sign was called.
I'm a native Spanish speaker and I must confess, I had no idea what the ~ sign was called.
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I'm a native Spanish speaker... It would be true absurdity to call the "~" sign "tilde" for it's place in Spanish language is very much independent from the vowel oriented "´" in "á,é,í,ó,ú".
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Names of various diacritical marks in English
I should note that I usually see the “bar” called a stroke.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diacritic#Types_of_diacritic
I should note that I usually see the “bar” called a stroke.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diacritic#Types_of_diacritic
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It IS called a tilde
Ñ, decimoquinta letra del alfabeto español. Su nombre es eñe y sólo se usa en español. Su forma procede de la consonante n. La tilde que lleva en la parte superior tiene su origen en la escritura de los copistas medievales, que la emplearon desde el siglo XII como signo escrito sobre una letra y que significaba carácter repetido, es decir, ñ = nn, õ =oo. Dos siglos más tarde este uso quedó restringido para la letra n, e incluso podía sustituir a una y o una m. En el siglo XV, Antonio de Nebrija identificaba esta letra y su sonido como elementos autóctonos en el castellano, por no tener precedente ni en griego, ni en latín, ni en árabe.
( http://www.geocities.com/szbmx/orgendel.htm#— )
tilde (l. titulu, indicio, seña)
1 f. Acento gráfico y rasgo que se pone sobre la ñ o sobre algunas abreviaturas, o signo análogo.
( http://www.diccionarios.com/index2.phtml? )
If you are going to rebate the above, at the very least, show us some information on the ~ sign. What is it called according to you, then? and some information sort , to back it up. Until then, anything else you say will be considered the word of a stubborn person who can't admit to be wrong.
Ñ, decimoquinta letra del alfabeto español. Su nombre es eñe y sólo se usa en español. Su forma procede de la consonante n. La tilde que lleva en la parte superior tiene su origen en la escritura de los copistas medievales, que la emplearon desde el siglo XII como signo escrito sobre una letra y que significaba carácter repetido, es decir, ñ = nn, õ =oo. Dos siglos más tarde este uso quedó restringido para la letra n, e incluso podía sustituir a una y o una m. En el siglo XV, Antonio de Nebrija identificaba esta letra y su sonido como elementos autóctonos en el castellano, por no tener precedente ni en griego, ni en latín, ni en árabe.
( http://www.geocities.com/szbmx/orgendel.htm#— )
tilde (l. titulu, indicio, seña)
1 f. Acento gráfico y rasgo que se pone sobre la ñ o sobre algunas abreviaturas, o signo análogo.
( http://www.diccionarios.com/index2.phtml? )
If you are going to rebate the above, at the very least, show us some information on the ~ sign. What is it called according to you, then? and some information sort , to back it up. Until then, anything else you say will be considered the word of a stubborn person who can't admit to be wrong.
This message was edited 11/12/2004, 8:26 AM
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There seem to be two types of tilde...
The name "la tilde diacrítica" is often used for that accent over vowels. But ~ is also called tilde.
http://www.dat.etsit.upm.es/~mmonjas/acentos.html
The name "la tilde diacrítica" is often used for that accent over vowels. But ~ is also called tilde.
http://www.dat.etsit.upm.es/~mmonjas/acentos.html
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Ok... I do admit my mistakes... But...
It's just that I find it illogical to give a name to the "~" sign... It's like giving a name to the difference between the "P" and the "D" or between the "R" or "B" and the "P" or between the "1", "L", "T" and the "I"... I can accept linguists use that term... Therefore admit it was not wrongly used... But I wont say it's a logical employment of terms. My intention was never against Justina... But against the understanding of "õ" as equivalent to "ó" and extrapolating this to "ñ"... I'm stubborn but no that much as not to admit this mistake and other mistakes... Sorry if anyone felt offended.
It's just that I find it illogical to give a name to the "~" sign... It's like giving a name to the difference between the "P" and the "D" or between the "R" or "B" and the "P" or between the "1", "L", "T" and the "I"... I can accept linguists use that term... Therefore admit it was not wrongly used... But I wont say it's a logical employment of terms. My intention was never against Justina... But against the understanding of "õ" as equivalent to "ó" and extrapolating this to "ñ"... I'm stubborn but no that much as not to admit this mistake and other mistakes... Sorry if anyone felt offended.
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Do you have both birth certificates, or just the certificate for the younger brother?
How is their relationship expressed on the birth certificate? I know that on Australian birth certificates it says "Other children from this marriage" which means that I don't appear as a sister on my half-sister's birth certificate. However, in the past and/or in other countries, it is possible that older half-siblings were included, so the brothers could have different fathers - and thus different surnames - but the same mother.
Where did they live, and where were they born (ie did they stay in Spain or did they emigrate, and if they emigrated, did they go to a Spanish-speaking country or not? If they left Spain, did they leave together or separately?)
Any more details you could give us would help :-)
How is their relationship expressed on the birth certificate? I know that on Australian birth certificates it says "Other children from this marriage" which means that I don't appear as a sister on my half-sister's birth certificate. However, in the past and/or in other countries, it is possible that older half-siblings were included, so the brothers could have different fathers - and thus different surnames - but the same mother.
Where did they live, and where were they born (ie did they stay in Spain or did they emigrate, and if they emigrated, did they go to a Spanish-speaking country or not? If they left Spain, did they leave together or separately?)
Any more details you could give us would help :-)
This message was edited 11/10/2004, 9:07 PM
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