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Help[Facts] Muriel / Mariel and English dialects
I found that Mariel has been used as variant spelling of Muriel in English and I'm curious about in which dialects they sound the same.
Is it general for all the English language or it is only true for some dialects?
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
Is it general for all the English language or it is only true for some dialects?
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
1
Replies
I think the situation as to pronunciation as it exists today has been pretty well covered by your other answers.
But I wonder if you might have found information about this from a source that was thinking more in terms of long term history. Withycombe's The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names gives Meriel and Miriel as common alternative spellings of Muriel in medieval times, and says that the modern English surnames Merrell and Merrill sometimes derive from an ancestress named Muriel. This implies to me that back in medieval England the pronunciation of the first syllable of Muriel rhymed more with the modern word "fur" than it does with "pure". In other words, original Muriel didn't have that y-consonant sound in the first syllable that English speakers use today. Perhaps that somehow got into the name when it was revived in the 19th century.
And if back in medieval times some there were dialects where "ur" turned to "air", that would explain how the Merrill is related to Muriel.
Finally, in the dialect of most of the United States, Meriel and Mariel would today be pronounced about the same, just as most Americans west of New Jersey pronounce Mary, merry, and marry the same. So perhaps the idea that Mariel is ultimately a variation of Muriel comes from some American linking them through the medieval spelling Meriel? Just a thought. :)
But I wonder if you might have found information about this from a source that was thinking more in terms of long term history. Withycombe's The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names gives Meriel and Miriel as common alternative spellings of Muriel in medieval times, and says that the modern English surnames Merrell and Merrill sometimes derive from an ancestress named Muriel. This implies to me that back in medieval England the pronunciation of the first syllable of Muriel rhymed more with the modern word "fur" than it does with "pure". In other words, original Muriel didn't have that y-consonant sound in the first syllable that English speakers use today. Perhaps that somehow got into the name when it was revived in the 19th century.
And if back in medieval times some there were dialects where "ur" turned to "air", that would explain how the Merrill is related to Muriel.
Finally, in the dialect of most of the United States, Meriel and Mariel would today be pronounced about the same, just as most Americans west of New Jersey pronounce Mary, merry, and marry the same. So perhaps the idea that Mariel is ultimately a variation of Muriel comes from some American linking them through the medieval spelling Meriel? Just a thought. :)
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Yes, probably it is a historical situation
in confluence with the avoiding situation exposed by Anneza.
I checked in babynamesofireland.com (because there are audio records of the names) and in Irish Muirgheal is pronounced with a sound [u] (in a way very similar to Muriel in Catalan or in Spanish), so the adaptation of Muirgheal as Muriel through the Latin or even through the French/the Norman has a lot of sense. And I can see the evolution from [u] to a schwa and then to [e] or [a].
Since Muriel is an old fashioned name in English, I didn't hear it in real life (I think) and I don't know if nowadays in the English of Ireland Muriel is pronounced with [u] (like in Irish) or with [ju] (like in the general modern English pronunciation). Next Monday I will ask my English teacher about the pronunciation of Muriel in Ireland.
in confluence with the avoiding situation exposed by Anneza.
I checked in babynamesofireland.com (because there are audio records of the names) and in Irish Muirgheal is pronounced with a sound [u] (in a way very similar to Muriel in Catalan or in Spanish), so the adaptation of Muirgheal as Muriel through the Latin or even through the French/the Norman has a lot of sense. And I can see the evolution from [u] to a schwa and then to [e] or [a].
Since Muriel is an old fashioned name in English, I didn't hear it in real life (I think) and I don't know if nowadays in the English of Ireland Muriel is pronounced with [u] (like in Irish) or with [ju] (like in the general modern English pronunciation). Next Monday I will ask my English teacher about the pronunciation of Muriel in Ireland.
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Muriel in Ireland
Yesterday I asked my teacher about the pronunciation of Muriel in Ireland and it is just like in the rest of English speaking world, with a [ju] instead of a [u].
I don't know if it could be different in an area of strong Gaelic influence (like Donegal), but in Dublin area the name is just pronounced in the English general way.
Yesterday I asked my teacher about the pronunciation of Muriel in Ireland and it is just like in the rest of English speaking world, with a [ju] instead of a [u].
I don't know if it could be different in an area of strong Gaelic influence (like Donegal), but in Dublin area the name is just pronounced in the English general way.
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I think the link is going to slowly change, though
I've noticed that my accent has been incredibly affected by the Spanish language. While part of this is due to being an ESL teacher and working closely with Spanish speaking women, my nieces and nephews are having the same effect happen to them. Currently they're both in "bilingual" programs, but even if they weren't they would be affected.
Have you noticed any changes such as this? It hasn't happened in the midwest at all - I'm often looked at weirdly because of the way I pronounce things. Especially with names - Katarina, Marisol, Alexander - I say them quickly, almost with a staccato, whereas they're drawn-out here.
I've noticed that my accent has been incredibly affected by the Spanish language. While part of this is due to being an ESL teacher and working closely with Spanish speaking women, my nieces and nephews are having the same effect happen to them. Currently they're both in "bilingual" programs, but even if they weren't they would be affected.
Have you noticed any changes such as this? It hasn't happened in the midwest at all - I'm often looked at weirdly because of the way I pronounce things. Especially with names - Katarina, Marisol, Alexander - I say them quickly, almost with a staccato, whereas they're drawn-out here.
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Thank you very much you all
I was really puzzled about how Muriel and Mariel could sound the same, but since I'm not a native speaker and I have still problems identifying English vowels it could be obviously a problem in my perception.
The creation of the variant Mariel from Muriel because of bad associations with this one has a lot of sense.
I was really puzzled about how Muriel and Mariel could sound the same, but since I'm not a native speaker and I have still problems identifying English vowels it could be obviously a problem in my perception.
The creation of the variant Mariel from Muriel because of bad associations with this one has a lot of sense.
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Just to clarify ...
One of Leslie Dunkling's books, perhaps the Guinness Book of Names, includes a list of names people have strong opinions about, and Muriel featured prominently, along with Bertha, Edna, Gladys and their male equivalents. So it could also just be a matter of fashion, in which case there should be a crop of little Muriels in twenty years from now!
One of Leslie Dunkling's books, perhaps the Guinness Book of Names, includes a list of names people have strong opinions about, and Muriel featured prominently, along with Bertha, Edna, Gladys and their male equivalents. So it could also just be a matter of fashion, in which case there should be a crop of little Muriels in twenty years from now!
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Standard (BBC newsreader) British (when in the UK I pass for a posh native!) definitely distinguishes them. It's Muriel with a You, or Mew like a cat, and Mariel either Mare- like the female horse or Ma-ree-el, with a very short final syllable and the first vowel like the one in At and Cat. In fact, when I say it, it's Ariel, like Sharon, with an M.
A lot of people seem to dislike the Muriel version, so it could well be that Mariel isn't so much a confusion of sounds as a conscious avoidance. I think Mariel sounds much better, though Muriel belonged to two beloved relatives so I've got no bad associations.
A lot of people seem to dislike the Muriel version, so it could well be that Mariel isn't so much a confusion of sounds as a conscious avoidance. I think Mariel sounds much better, though Muriel belonged to two beloved relatives so I've got no bad associations.
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I would not say that Mariel is a variant spelling of Muriel. Here they're considered two distinct names. Muriel is MYUR-ee-el (first syllable rhymes with "pure.") This was my aunt's name and she was from the Midwest, but I live on the West Coast and it's pronounced the same here.
Mariel is MARE-ee-el (first syllable rhymes with "care.")
Mariel is MARE-ee-el (first syllable rhymes with "care.")
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I live on the West Coast too, and pronounce the names the same as you.
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I pronounce Mariel MER-ee-el, and I say it pretty quickly. Muriel though I'd pronounce MYUR-ee-el, so they're not quite the same thing. I live in Michigan, so I have a... Michigan accent. Not the same as a midwestern accent. I don't know if everyone else around here would pronounce those the same though.
This message was edited 3/3/2008, 12:24 PM
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American East Coast Dialect...
And it depends on how they're said. mar-ee-el is how I would pronounce Mariel, however I've been influenced strongly by the Spanish language. Looking at it from a Midwest perspective (where I'm at now) I can somewhat understand why it would be considered a variant spelling - the sounds would slur more - mare-ee-el/meer-ee-el.
And it depends on how they're said. mar-ee-el is how I would pronounce Mariel, however I've been influenced strongly by the Spanish language. Looking at it from a Midwest perspective (where I'm at now) I can somewhat understand why it would be considered a variant spelling - the sounds would slur more - mare-ee-el/meer-ee-el.
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Clarifying
I say Mariel very quickly - mar-el-ELL - whereas here it would most likely be pronounced mare-ee-el, with the mare drawn out instead of staccato syllables - which it would be in the East.
I say Mariel very quickly - mar-el-ELL - whereas here it would most likely be pronounced mare-ee-el, with the mare drawn out instead of staccato syllables - which it would be in the East.
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West Yorkshire Pennine dialect/accent here and to me they do not sound the same.
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