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Help[Facts] Anglicizations of Irish names
Why are anglicizations of Irish names based on spelling instead of pronunciation? For instance, how did Padraig become Patrick, when phonetically speaking they sound nothing alike?
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I think there is a semantic disconnect here. Most of the time we're not talking about "Anglicization" as such. Some of your examples are names with common origins (e.g. Patric and Padraig), others are hybrids combining combining the Irish version and English version of a name with yet another origin (Kathleen, from Greek Ekaterina, through a combination of English Katherine and Irish Caitlin); in other cases English speakers have adopted an Irish name unaware of its pronunciation (e.g. Caitlin with the pronunciation kei:tlin rather than kha:tli:n?); in yet other cases the English version will be a development of a Scots Gaelic, Cumbrian, Welsh or Manx (a branch of Gaelic with English orthography) name, or even a development of an Irish name which has been naturalized and altered over the centuries (Irish names have been in use in Britain, with no standardized spelling, since the disintegration of the Roman empire, thus we have Cunorix and Coline in Wroxeter c. 470 later Anglicized as Cynric [y representing ü] and Ceol [via earlier Ceaulin]). None of these are really examples of "Anglicization" of more recent Irish names. There generally will not be any hard and fast rule when it comes to actual Anglicization though. You have to remember how it happens. Either an English-speaking individual hears an Irish name and creates what they personally think is an English approximation, or an Irish immigrant will alter their own name to fit in with their new acquaintances' way of writing and speaking. With no rule to follow, and no clear idea of standard English orthography (un-embellished by the many exceptions for foreign words in place already), they make unique choices about simplifications, changes in pronunciation, and adaptations in spelling, and the use of "folk etymology" (adapting the form of a word to fit another more familiar word, e.g. Cearbhall to Carroll (similar to Carol, familiar as a version of Charles), or Tool(e from Tual (short for Tuathal, in the same way Alfred is short for Athelfred).
This message was edited 6/6/2016, 5:32 PM
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If you go into some of the names on this site, go to "comments" and listen to the pronunciations by Irish speakers, it's obvious that the pronunciations in Irish sound nothing like the anglicized spellings of many of the names. I'm wondering if anglicizations also change pronunciation as well as spelling?
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I don't think you completely got Sugar Plum Fairy's point.
The point was that in your original post, Patrick is NOT an "Anglicization" of Padraig. They are separate versions in two different languages of a name that originated in Latin, not Irish Gaelic.
Can you give an example of a name which originated in Irish Gaelic where you believe the "Anglicization" changes the pronunciation?
The point was that in your original post, Patrick is NOT an "Anglicization" of Padraig. They are separate versions in two different languages of a name that originated in Latin, not Irish Gaelic.
Can you give an example of a name which originated in Irish Gaelic where you believe the "Anglicization" changes the pronunciation?
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No, I understood what she was saying, it was just a bad example on my part. Here are some better examples:
http://forvo.com/word/c%C3%A1itl%C3%ADn/#ga is the pronunciation of CAITLÍN and CÁITLÍN. The anglicization is Caitlin, but sounds nothing like those examples, which if spelled according to phonetics would look more like Cotchlin or Catchleen.
http://forvo.com/search/Cearbhall%20%c3%93%20D%c3%a1laigh/ is the pronunciation of CEARBHALL. The Anglicization is Carroll or Carrol, but sounds nothing like that examples, which if spelled according to phonetics would look more like Carrool or Carool.
These are just a couple of examples from each gender of name. There are more in the listings here.
http://forvo.com/word/c%C3%A1itl%C3%ADn/#ga is the pronunciation of CAITLÍN and CÁITLÍN. The anglicization is Caitlin, but sounds nothing like those examples, which if spelled according to phonetics would look more like Cotchlin or Catchleen.
http://forvo.com/search/Cearbhall%20%c3%93%20D%c3%a1laigh/ is the pronunciation of CEARBHALL. The Anglicization is Carroll or Carrol, but sounds nothing like that examples, which if spelled according to phonetics would look more like Carrool or Carool.
These are just a couple of examples from each gender of name. There are more in the listings here.
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I believe pronunciation in Irish names varies quite a bit from region to region, so I'm reluctant to consider those as the only standard pronunciations. You also have to consider how English is pronounced in Ireland. an Irish English-speaker may actually pronounce Kathleen and Caroll exactly like their Irish counterparts.
Like earthnut said, these spellings are approximations; it would be almost impossible to reproduce the exact sound of these names using only English phonetics. For instance, the sound "kh" in Caitlín doesn't really exist in English; "tch" is no more correct than "th".
Using the examples you gave, the anglicized versions Kathleen and Caroll are probably influenced by the existing names Katherine (Katharina in Latin) and (the unrelated) Carolus. Apart from pronunciation, aesthetics probably also plays a role when anglicizing a name. Whence Neve, rather than Neeve, Neive, or Neev (which would all work in English).
Like earthnut said, these spellings are approximations; it would be almost impossible to reproduce the exact sound of these names using only English phonetics. For instance, the sound "kh" in Caitlín doesn't really exist in English; "tch" is no more correct than "th".
Using the examples you gave, the anglicized versions Kathleen and Caroll are probably influenced by the existing names Katherine (Katharina in Latin) and (the unrelated) Carolus. Apart from pronunciation, aesthetics probably also plays a role when anglicizing a name. Whence Neve, rather than Neeve, Neive, or Neev (which would all work in English).
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In the case of Caitlin, the Irish name spawned two English names. Kathleen, based on the pronunciation, and Caitlin, based on the spelling. Caitlin didn't attain popularity in America until much later than Kathleen.
Most Irish names are anglisized based on their pronunciation. But in some cases, there are versions based on their spelling as well. The latter seems to happen after an Irish name has attained a certain level of popularity.
In the case of Cearbhall,, Carroll IS based on the pronunciation. (as with Kathleen, these spellings are appoximations of the Irish, not very exact). If one wanted a named based on the spelling, it would be spelled Cearbhall pronounced SEER-ball in English.
Most Irish names are anglisized based on their pronunciation. But in some cases, there are versions based on their spelling as well. The latter seems to happen after an Irish name has attained a certain level of popularity.
In the case of Cearbhall,, Carroll IS based on the pronunciation. (as with Kathleen, these spellings are appoximations of the Irish, not very exact). If one wanted a named based on the spelling, it would be spelled Cearbhall pronounced SEER-ball in English.
This message was edited 5/19/2016, 11:38 AM
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