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Help[Facts] Old German name Walram
I found two different meanings to the first element of this old German name (which is not in use any more):
WAL- same as Walt- (reign) or
WAL- "fighting place" (like in Walhalla)
Has anybody got exact information?
Andy ;—)
P.S.: The second element seems to be "hraban" (raven)
WAL- same as Walt- (reign) or
WAL- "fighting place" (like in Walhalla)
Has anybody got exact information?
Andy ;—)
P.S.: The second element seems to be "hraban" (raven)
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Replies
All of the Germanic Wal- names on this site contain the element wald, meaning "rule", so I'd say that's where it comes from. I agree with you over hraban. So it'd be "raven ruler" or something like that.
The Walhalla (Valhalla) translation seems unlikely - if I'm not mistaken, Valhalla is a Norse myth so the wal/val part would be from Norse rather than Old German, and while mix-n-match-linguistics (:-D) names aren't unknown it's probably more likely that the two parts came from the same source.
:-)
The Walhalla (Valhalla) translation seems unlikely - if I'm not mistaken, Valhalla is a Norse myth so the wal/val part would be from Norse rather than Old German, and while mix-n-match-linguistics (:-D) names aren't unknown it's probably more likely that the two parts came from the same source.
:-)
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Thanks! That's what I thought, too. The only thing that made me wonder, is that the Walhalla bit is taken from a usually very reliable book (Das große Vornamen-Lexikon, Duden), so Ithought there might be something to it.
I'm afraid you are not right when saying that Wal- (Val-) is only a Norse word. This certainly applies to Walhalla, but the element "wal" appears in the German word "walstatt" ("battlefield", not in use any more). In Old High German "wal" meant the very thing, so "walstatt" is kind of tautological. From what I understand the original meaning of "wal" has something to do with death and dead bodies.
Andy ;—)
I'm afraid you are not right when saying that Wal- (Val-) is only a Norse word. This certainly applies to Walhalla, but the element "wal" appears in the German word "walstatt" ("battlefield", not in use any more). In Old High German "wal" meant the very thing, so "walstatt" is kind of tautological. From what I understand the original meaning of "wal" has something to do with death and dead bodies.
Andy ;—)
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That's interesting - not surprising that there was some transfer between Norse and Old German when you think about it, though! Hmmm . . . lets try it by meaning. "Raven ruler" seems more likely because "battlefield raven" considering what ravens traditionally do on battlefields! But I guess it could be either, lol. :-)
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I prefer the "raven ruler" myself. But you must not forget: Between the 5th and 11th century a lot of German names were just "made up" from two elements originally not related. The elements would be taken from father and mother (and sometimes from the grandparents).
With the father being called Hildebrand and the mother going by Gertrud, they could call their boys Gerbrand or Trudbrand, Hildger, Brandger or Trudger. Which left Hiltrud, Brantrud, Gerhild, Brandhild and Trudhild for the girls. So we have to be very careful when we try to understand a meaning of those old German names that exeeds the meaning of the two seperate elements.
Andy ;—)
With the father being called Hildebrand and the mother going by Gertrud, they could call their boys Gerbrand or Trudbrand, Hildger, Brandger or Trudger. Which left Hiltrud, Brantrud, Gerhild, Brandhild and Trudhild for the girls. So we have to be very careful when we try to understand a meaning of those old German names that exeeds the meaning of the two seperate elements.
Andy ;—)
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Good point! . . .
. . . there doesn't have to be a coherent overall meaning, does there! Oh well, so much for neatness :-D I'd suspect that the semi-random combining of name elements continued past those centuries, too, although it was probably less prevalent - it still goes on today in many languages, after all.
I'm about to leave work so I won't be online for a couple of hours - so if I don't reply during that time I haven't abandoned the discussion, I'm just not here! :-))
Hey, since you know a lot about Norse/Old German, you couldn't hop over to the opinion board and help me convince Flavie that Hayley isn't Norse and doesn't mean "heroine", could you?! Lol
:-)
. . . there doesn't have to be a coherent overall meaning, does there! Oh well, so much for neatness :-D I'd suspect that the semi-random combining of name elements continued past those centuries, too, although it was probably less prevalent - it still goes on today in many languages, after all.
I'm about to leave work so I won't be online for a couple of hours - so if I don't reply during that time I haven't abandoned the discussion, I'm just not here! :-))
Hey, since you know a lot about Norse/Old German, you couldn't hop over to the opinion board and help me convince Flavie that Hayley isn't Norse and doesn't mean "heroine", could you?! Lol
:-)
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I'm sorry, but I don't know much about Old Norse at all. So I won't interfere with your little discussion. But to my ears Hayley has nothing to it that would remind me of any Norse name or name element I have ever heard of.
You never know what happens to names when they cross a border (of space or time), but like you said, what should the Norse name have been, and what border could have been involved?
I don't know much about trends and changes of meanings, like the ones you are talking about, but what you say sounds reasonable. Even more what you write about name books and especially sites like babynames.com.
Andy ;—)
You never know what happens to names when they cross a border (of space or time), but like you said, what should the Norse name have been, and what border could have been involved?
I don't know much about trends and changes of meanings, like the ones you are talking about, but what you say sounds reasonable. Even more what you write about name books and especially sites like babynames.com.
Andy ;—)
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