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Help[Facts] About Magdalene in English
I noticed that someone posted on Magdalene recently on the Opinions board and asked how people pronounce it. Everyone except me seemed to think that the G is pronounced.
I've always assumed that, in English, the given name Magdalene would be pronounced like Magdalen and Magdalene Colleges at Oxford and Cambridge: that is, like Maud-lyn (see, for instance, http://www.magd.cam.ac.uk/about/history/why-maudlyn.html). This was seemingly confirmed for me when I met a (British) Magdalene a few years back who pronounced her name Maud-lyn and went by the nickname Maud.
As far as I know, the English pronunciation of this name is closely related to the French name Madeleine (also derived from the Latinate Magdalene and also with the g dropped out). Historically speaking, Chaucer spells this name Maudeleyne in a more phonetic representation of how Magdalene is/was pronounced. And I'm quite confident that I've seen spellings such as Mawdelin, Mawdelyn, Maudelin, Maudlin, Maudelyne, Maudlyn, etc. in early modern English texts in reference to Mary Magdalene and also as female given names(apparently more phonetic spellings of the name based on real-life pronunciation).
It's not super-common, but a little google searching confirms that the name Maudlyn is still in use today and would appear to be a variant spelling of Magdalene.
Am I crazy? Is Maud-lyn only an antiquated pronunciation of Magdalene, or is it still the correct English one? Are both pronunciations (i.e. with and without the g) okay? Or are many Magdalene fans on these boards actually mispronouncing the name (at least as it should be said in English)?
I've always assumed that, in English, the given name Magdalene would be pronounced like Magdalen and Magdalene Colleges at Oxford and Cambridge: that is, like Maud-lyn (see, for instance, http://www.magd.cam.ac.uk/about/history/why-maudlyn.html). This was seemingly confirmed for me when I met a (British) Magdalene a few years back who pronounced her name Maud-lyn and went by the nickname Maud.
As far as I know, the English pronunciation of this name is closely related to the French name Madeleine (also derived from the Latinate Magdalene and also with the g dropped out). Historically speaking, Chaucer spells this name Maudeleyne in a more phonetic representation of how Magdalene is/was pronounced. And I'm quite confident that I've seen spellings such as Mawdelin, Mawdelyn, Maudelin, Maudlin, Maudelyne, Maudlyn, etc. in early modern English texts in reference to Mary Magdalene and also as female given names(apparently more phonetic spellings of the name based on real-life pronunciation).
It's not super-common, but a little google searching confirms that the name Maudlyn is still in use today and would appear to be a variant spelling of Magdalene.
Am I crazy? Is Maud-lyn only an antiquated pronunciation of Magdalene, or is it still the correct English one? Are both pronunciations (i.e. with and without the g) okay? Or are many Magdalene fans on these boards actually mispronouncing the name (at least as it should be said in English)?
This message was edited 5/26/2009, 5:56 AM
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Replies
It's all about the spread of literacy! Maudlyn would be deeply odd as a pronunciation nowadays because the vocabulary item 'maudlin' seems unsuitable as a given name. But, it's the same word: Mary Magdalen was shown in floods of tears in religious art to indicate her repentance, and her name later acquired the meaning of weepy and sentimental, probably alcohol-induced. But this didn't exist in the middle ages, when she and her tears would have been taken very seriously.So the original word split two ways: the medieval pronunciation, spelt Maudlin, became the dictionary word with a lower-case m, and the 'name' Magdalen acquired a 'spelling pronunciation' - newly literate people pronounced it as they saw it. (Actually, it's more of an address than a name: Magdalene (often with four syllables) = Woman from Magdala, just as Jesus of Nazareth can be referred to as the Nazarene).
The Oxbridge colleges got their names when the Maudlin pronunciation was the only one in use, and with their everyday use of it plus their respect for tradition they retained it. But it's the same with, say, Gonville and Caius: nobody outside that academic world would ever use 'Keys' as a pronunciation of 'Caius', and when the students there study Caius Cassius we could hear them say 'I'm from Keys and I'm studying KIE-es'; written down it'd be Caius for both.
I think your British Magdalene was from a consciously archaising family! I've certainly never encountered a modern Magdalen(e) who used the Maudlin version, and the contemporary Mauds I've known have been just that: Maud.
That said, here in South Africa we would expect a rather different pronunciation: makh-da-LEEen, with the stressed final syllable having a long E sound followed by a neutral vowel; which is how Afrikaans works.The kh is that throat-clearing sound, and the usual short form is MAKH-da.
The Oxbridge colleges got their names when the Maudlin pronunciation was the only one in use, and with their everyday use of it plus their respect for tradition they retained it. But it's the same with, say, Gonville and Caius: nobody outside that academic world would ever use 'Keys' as a pronunciation of 'Caius', and when the students there study Caius Cassius we could hear them say 'I'm from Keys and I'm studying KIE-es'; written down it'd be Caius for both.
I think your British Magdalene was from a consciously archaising family! I've certainly never encountered a modern Magdalen(e) who used the Maudlin version, and the contemporary Mauds I've known have been just that: Maud.
That said, here in South Africa we would expect a rather different pronunciation: makh-da-LEEen, with the stressed final syllable having a long E sound followed by a neutral vowel; which is how Afrikaans works.The kh is that throat-clearing sound, and the usual short form is MAKH-da.
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I don't live in the UK but I do live in Ireland.
I have never met a Magdalene - I also assumed that Maud-lin was the exception rather than the rule. In Catholic Church services here it is always said Mag-da-lin.
Not conclusive but I seem to remember there was a character Magdala or Magdalen in an Agatha Christie novel that went by Maggie.
I have never met a Magdalene - I also assumed that Maud-lin was the exception rather than the rule. In Catholic Church services here it is always said Mag-da-lin.
Not conclusive but I seem to remember there was a character Magdala or Magdalen in an Agatha Christie novel that went by Maggie.
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I don't know how most women named Magdalene who live in England would pronounce this name. But I think that in the USA, almost everyone would find the "Maud-lyn" pronunciation to be eccentric. I've never heard the name pronounced without the "g" in the US.
However, there are several names which have different normal pronunciations in American English than the do in British English. Americans normally accent Bernard on the second syllable, while in England it's normally accented on the first. The same goes for Demi, which in the USA is normally said "deh-MEE" while in the UK people tend to rhyme it with Emmy. Neither of these is a "mispronunciation"; it's just a matter of dialect.
Pronunciations also do change historically. Just because Magdalene developed the pronunciation of "Maudlin" in medieval England doesn't mean that the modern English pronounce it that way. 21st century English is pronounced very differently from the way Chaucer pronounced it. Hopefully someone from the UK will clarify this. :)
However, there are several names which have different normal pronunciations in American English than the do in British English. Americans normally accent Bernard on the second syllable, while in England it's normally accented on the first. The same goes for Demi, which in the USA is normally said "deh-MEE" while in the UK people tend to rhyme it with Emmy. Neither of these is a "mispronunciation"; it's just a matter of dialect.
Pronunciations also do change historically. Just because Magdalene developed the pronunciation of "Maudlin" in medieval England doesn't mean that the modern English pronounce it that way. 21st century English is pronounced very differently from the way Chaucer pronounced it. Hopefully someone from the UK will clarify this. :)
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Magdelene and Demi
I've never met anyone called Magdalene but I would pronounce it with the "g" (and I'm in England). My assumption was that only the colleges use the antiquated pronunciation Maudlyn, but I could be wrong.
Re Demi - I seem to remember that when Demi Moore first became well known here in the early 90's I always heard her name pronounced as Demmy. Now, I tend to hear people call her Deh-MEE Moore although many people still pronounce it Demmy. I think it was just a wrong assumption (possibly people thought it should sound like "semi") and it spread. The name Demi (prn Demmy) has recently become reasonably trendy, possibly because it was used in the soap opera EastEnders. I see it hyphenated occasionally too e.g. Demi-Lee. Sorry, going off topic now.
I've never met anyone called Magdalene but I would pronounce it with the "g" (and I'm in England). My assumption was that only the colleges use the antiquated pronunciation Maudlyn, but I could be wrong.
Re Demi - I seem to remember that when Demi Moore first became well known here in the early 90's I always heard her name pronounced as Demmy. Now, I tend to hear people call her Deh-MEE Moore although many people still pronounce it Demmy. I think it was just a wrong assumption (possibly people thought it should sound like "semi") and it spread. The name Demi (prn Demmy) has recently become reasonably trendy, possibly because it was used in the soap opera EastEnders. I see it hyphenated occasionally too e.g. Demi-Lee. Sorry, going off topic now.
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Demi - meant to go under Cleveland's post
I live in the US and I'd pronounce Demi to rhyme with Emmy. I don't know if I've ever heard it said deh-MEE, although Demi Moore is the only time I ever have heard the name. I don't know which way is correct to say her name, but I've only heard Demmy I believe.
And for the record, I've never heard Magdalene said without the g either.
I live in the US and I'd pronounce Demi to rhyme with Emmy. I don't know if I've ever heard it said deh-MEE, although Demi Moore is the only time I ever have heard the name. I don't know which way is correct to say her name, but I've only heard Demmy I believe.
And for the record, I've never heard Magdalene said without the g either.
This message was edited 5/26/2009, 1:34 PM
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Personally I don't recall ever having heard a newscaster on TV in the USA call Demi Moore "Demmy", though perhaps once or twice I've heard a member of the general public say it that way. But I also often hear members of the general public saying "Hayley" Berry for Halle Berry instead of "Hallie", which is the way she pronounces it, and also how I remember all newscasters pronouncing Halle.
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