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Help[Opinions] Re: Patty
in reply to a message by Puck
I had no idea this was done purposefully for variation! Interesting!
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To my knowledge, they didn't just pick random letters to substitute but Peggy, Peg, Polly (Molly), Dick etc came about from usually younger siblings trying to say the nicknames. Linguistically P and D sounds are easier than M or R sounds for little kids, which is why so many children say Papa or Dada before Mama.
The nicknames would have stuck because of the lack of name variety though!
The nicknames would have stuck because of the lack of name variety though!
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Not to impede upon your authority, but here is an article that explains the middle ages trend of swapping first letters of nicknames, see William, Robert, and (especially) Edward.
http://mentalfloss.com/article/24761/origins-10-nicknames
http://mentalfloss.com/article/24761/origins-10-nicknames
This message was edited 12/2/2015, 2:17 PM
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Well Sol Steinmetz, a renowned linguist, cites Peg and Peggy as examples of how language has evolved from baby talk. https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0307496465
I have also read other books that have referred to it. I'm going to take his word for it over a journalist on Mental Floss who doesn't cite his sources.
I also wasn't disagreeing with the all of what you said. Just that they didn't randomly decide to replace letters. The replaced letters did stick though because there was a lack of variety in names.
I have also read other books that have referred to it. I'm going to take his word for it over a journalist on Mental Floss who doesn't cite his sources.
I also wasn't disagreeing with the all of what you said. Just that they didn't randomly decide to replace letters. The replaced letters did stick though because there was a lack of variety in names.
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I have read other sources besides that one, it was just one of the many things that came up when I Googled the commonly known trend of letter swapping. Plenty of adults also have speech problems especially noting the standards of education in the middle ages, so, it could have just as easily been a lack of formal education in adults that reshaped the nicknames.
Since none of us were alive in the middle ages, there is no way of knowing whether babies inspired the changes without a contemporary account that states that it was so, but thank you for posting the theory.
Since none of us were alive in the middle ages, there is no way of knowing whether babies inspired the changes without a contemporary account that states that it was so, but thank you for posting the theory.
This message was edited 12/2/2015, 2:41 PM
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Agreed :)
It's interesting regardless how it happened.
It's interesting regardless how it happened.
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I've read that article previously as I follow Mental Floss on Facebook. I disagree with the article where it states "There are many theories on why Bill became a nickname for William; the most obvious is that it was part of the Middle Ages trend of letter swapping." I don't believe that Bill began being used as a nickname for William until the early-to-mid-nineteenth century. Before that, the only nickname was Will. The article states that William III was called "King Billy" in the late seventeenth century, but although he is called King Billy in Northern Ireland and Scotland according to Wikipedia, it doesn't state that the term was contemporary to his time.
You just never hear of a Bill before the early nineteenth century and I don't think it became really common until the mid nineteenth century. It was Will Shakespeare, not Bill Shakespeare.
You just never hear of a Bill before the early nineteenth century and I don't think it became really common until the mid nineteenth century. It was Will Shakespeare, not Bill Shakespeare.
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