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Help[Opinions] Re: hypocritical?
in reply to a message by RoxStar
Eh...he did rape Scarlett. And it's not like he was anti-slavery, or anything. You could say he was apolitical for the most part and that "taking" Scarlett was okay because she kind of liked it in the end, but I can't help but look at those things objectively and it doesn't make me like the association. I can see how it would be dicey to some people.
"And by the way, dearie, your punctuation sucks canal water!"
-The Ghost of Vivian Vance
"And by the way, dearie, your punctuation sucks canal water!"
-The Ghost of Vivian Vance
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Replies
He and Scarlett were both amoral, I think. Not immoral, but amoral.
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Well....it was a "gentle rape." And as not PC as this is to say, some women fantasize about that.
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Perhaps you need to watch this to help you understand about consent and rape. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8 Perhaps someone should have shown it to Rhett, except I don't think he would have given a damn.
As mentioned below in another comment of mine, the consent inherent in a fantasy completely destroys the idea of "rape fantasy." It can't be rape if you consent and a fantasy allows someone to consent.
"Gentle rape" isn't a real thing.
As mentioned below in another comment of mine, the consent inherent in a fantasy completely destroys the idea of "rape fantasy." It can't be rape if you consent and a fantasy allows someone to consent.
"Gentle rape" isn't a real thing.
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Thank you, but I don't need any sophomoric lectures about consent and rape, using tea as an analogy. I understand consent and rape.
"Gentle rape" isn't a real thing. I never said it was. It's a thing that exists in books and movies and people's fantasies but not in real life. The fact is, though, that some women fantasize about rape, in which they really never give consent during the whole of the imaginary sequence, and they like the fantasy. It does differ from real life rape in many ways, but not in the giving consent part.
What I do think is that men should not have to obtain explicit permission every time before they make the next move, and that if and when it gets to the point that the woman wants it to stop, it's her responsibility to say, "No." And when the man hears, "No", he should stop. I tried to make that as simple as possible.
"Gentle rape" isn't a real thing. I never said it was. It's a thing that exists in books and movies and people's fantasies but not in real life. The fact is, though, that some women fantasize about rape, in which they really never give consent during the whole of the imaginary sequence, and they like the fantasy. It does differ from real life rape in many ways, but not in the giving consent part.
What I do think is that men should not have to obtain explicit permission every time before they make the next move, and that if and when it gets to the point that the woman wants it to stop, it's her responsibility to say, "No." And when the man hears, "No", he should stop. I tried to make that as simple as possible.
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Apparently you do need sophomoric lectures about consent and rape because even if someone does have a rape fantasy in which they don't give explicit consent, they are still mentally giving consent to the mental activity. It's not rape fantasy. It does differ from real rape because the fantasy sexual activity is wanted. A real rape has sexual contact that is not wanted. It's very basic stuff here. I'm not sure why you don't understand it.
Your last paragraph would be fabulous if that worked out that way in the real world. Sometimes women go catatonic, disassociate from their bodies, sometimes they start crying uncontrollably, sometimes they are so drunk or drugged or asleep or unconscious that they can't give coherent consent. A woman/girl doesn't know how she's going to behave in a rape until it actually happens to her. Maybe you need to volunteer with a rape recovery center or something to really understand this.
Your last paragraph would be fabulous if that worked out that way in the real world. Sometimes women go catatonic, disassociate from their bodies, sometimes they start crying uncontrollably, sometimes they are so drunk or drugged or asleep or unconscious that they can't give coherent consent. A woman/girl doesn't know how she's going to behave in a rape until it actually happens to her. Maybe you need to volunteer with a rape recovery center or something to really understand this.
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Oh Jesus Christ. Where did I say that rape fantasy does NOT differ from real rape? Nowhere! I did not say that! I said the exact opposite! I didn't think it was even necessary to point that out to begin with, it should be patently obvious, but I forgot that everything needs to be foreseen and forestalled on the internet, so I did point it out in response to solveig. Yes, there's a form of mental consent when one has a fantasy--my point was that there's no consent within the fantasy itself.
It never pays to keep things simple, does it? Obviously, if a woman is unconscious, or impaired, she can't give consent and a man should know that, and if she starts crying, he should know there's a problem. OTOH, if I hear, "I didn't want to but I said nothing because I disassociated from my body so it's rape", I'll do nothing but roll my eyes.
I should have known that mention of "gentle rape" was going to cause someone to foam at the mouth. Sorry, but it's a thing, though not in real life.
Maybe you should become a criminal defense attorney and volunteer your time pro bono to those falsely accused of crimes, including rape, to really understand this.
It never pays to keep things simple, does it? Obviously, if a woman is unconscious, or impaired, she can't give consent and a man should know that, and if she starts crying, he should know there's a problem. OTOH, if I hear, "I didn't want to but I said nothing because I disassociated from my body so it's rape", I'll do nothing but roll my eyes.
I should have known that mention of "gentle rape" was going to cause someone to foam at the mouth. Sorry, but it's a thing, though not in real life.
Maybe you should become a criminal defense attorney and volunteer your time pro bono to those falsely accused of crimes, including rape, to really understand this.
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This message was edited 10/25/2016, 3:57 PM
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Then I would tell juries that if the encounter had been in a book or movie, it would be gentle rape and so it's no big deal and men should aspire to be him.
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*eyeroll*
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Gentle ra.pe / fantasies / reality
I'm going to put myself out there (which I'm good at anyway) and explain this.
When someone is into BDSM they do like the idea of 'gentle rape.' However, it's done in a very, very safe way. My husband and I have a little bit of a slave / master relationship. It's not super hardcore - more along the lines of The Secretary (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFma24S-Uvw) than Fifty Shades of Grey.
Anyway: My husband "forces" himself on me but it's within certain guidelines, done in a safe way, done with my permission so to speak. I haven't read Gone with the Wind or read the book but I have to say this - Scarlett was raped. Gentle or not, it was rape. And no one ever fantasizes about being raped that way. Even when I'm being 'dominated' I still hold the control. At any point I can say "Stop" and everything stops.
I'm going to put myself out there (which I'm good at anyway) and explain this.
When someone is into BDSM they do like the idea of 'gentle rape.' However, it's done in a very, very safe way. My husband and I have a little bit of a slave / master relationship. It's not super hardcore - more along the lines of The Secretary (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFma24S-Uvw) than Fifty Shades of Grey.
Anyway: My husband "forces" himself on me but it's within certain guidelines, done in a safe way, done with my permission so to speak. I haven't read Gone with the Wind or read the book but I have to say this - Scarlett was raped. Gentle or not, it was rape. And no one ever fantasizes about being raped that way. Even when I'm being 'dominated' I still hold the control. At any point I can say "Stop" and everything stops.
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Time out
Just to clarify things, BDSM is not about rape or even "gentle rape." It is the antithesis of rape because the submissive person is consenting to the sexual contact no matter how aggressive the contact is.
I've seen a presentation by someone who studies sex and sexual predators (focusing on pedophiles). He discussed how he had a theory that BDSM could be used to re-calibrate predators. He and his research partner interviewed many people into the scene and although it was very interesting and they learned that the submissive person is actually the more powerful person in the relationship, it is in no way shape or form a real predatory relationship. Any lessons he learned were moot because predators honestly enjoy taking something that is not given.
Just to clarify things, BDSM is not about rape or even "gentle rape." It is the antithesis of rape because the submissive person is consenting to the sexual contact no matter how aggressive the contact is.
I've seen a presentation by someone who studies sex and sexual predators (focusing on pedophiles). He discussed how he had a theory that BDSM could be used to re-calibrate predators. He and his research partner interviewed many people into the scene and although it was very interesting and they learned that the submissive person is actually the more powerful person in the relationship, it is in no way shape or form a real predatory relationship. Any lessons he learned were moot because predators honestly enjoy taking something that is not given.
This message was edited 10/25/2016, 8:37 AM
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Exactly.
Thank you so much for doing a far better job of explaining this than I did. I really appreciate this.
Thank you so much for doing a far better job of explaining this than I did. I really appreciate this.
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nobody?
Nobody fantasizes about a real rape?
Really?
There are people who fantasize about being killed and eaten. There are people who fantasize about becoming amputees or going blind.
Some even act on it.
Yes, some women, and men too, do fantasize about being raped in a non-BDSM way.
And was it really necessary to tell about your sexual behavior on this board?
Nobody fantasizes about a real rape?
Really?
There are people who fantasize about being killed and eaten. There are people who fantasize about becoming amputees or going blind.
Some even act on it.
Yes, some women, and men too, do fantasize about being raped in a non-BDSM way.
And was it really necessary to tell about your sexual behavior on this board?
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So the woman who thinks that being transgender is an mental illness
Is defending the fantasy of "gentle rape" and equating as the same as those INSANE fantasies?
Really? Those "fantasies" are a form of mental illness. "Gentle Rape" isn't a good fantasy and it doesn't happen. A woman - or man - who attempts something like that outside of a BDSM relationship will regret it.
No matter how you spin it, Rhett Butler was a rapist. Rape is rape. End of story. A woman who says "No" at the beginning isn't going to say "Yes" at the end. If a woman submits to "gentle rape" she is giving her permission, which is a form of BDSM where the submissive has complete control.
And - I am far from the only one to speak about my sex life on this board (RDZL, Chrisell) or to bring up BDSM (which has been brought up several times on this board.)
Is defending the fantasy of "gentle rape" and equating as the same as those INSANE fantasies?
Really? Those "fantasies" are a form of mental illness. "Gentle Rape" isn't a good fantasy and it doesn't happen. A woman - or man - who attempts something like that outside of a BDSM relationship will regret it.
No matter how you spin it, Rhett Butler was a rapist. Rape is rape. End of story. A woman who says "No" at the beginning isn't going to say "Yes" at the end. If a woman submits to "gentle rape" she is giving her permission, which is a form of BDSM where the submissive has complete control.
And - I am far from the only one to speak about my sex life on this board (RDZL, Chrisell) or to bring up BDSM (which has been brought up several times on this board.)
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Possible TMI
I started out this post arguing that it was a "gentle rape" in GWTW. But then I typed a description of the act: There was no physical violence, it was a grab, a kiss, a "We're having sex tonight" (in different words), and a carrying up the stairs. She never said "No" and never put up any physical resistance.
Once I described it, I don't think I'd call it a rape at all.
TMI: I have fantasized about being "gently raped." If, in that kind of fantasy, I could say "No" and the man would stop, that would be no fantasy at all. I can see that being a necessity with something you are doing IRL, but it would destroy the fantasy. To me, a "gentle rape" fantasy doesn't mean the ability to say "No", as you describe the way you practice it. There are several things that make a "gentle rape" different from a real life rape:
1. The man is attractive, and you're attracted to him.
2. He does not slap, hit, or punch you, or torture you.
3. You are never in fear for your life.
4. And you end up liking it ha ha.
I started out this post arguing that it was a "gentle rape" in GWTW. But then I typed a description of the act: There was no physical violence, it was a grab, a kiss, a "We're having sex tonight" (in different words), and a carrying up the stairs. She never said "No" and never put up any physical resistance.
Once I described it, I don't think I'd call it a rape at all.
TMI: I have fantasized about being "gently raped." If, in that kind of fantasy, I could say "No" and the man would stop, that would be no fantasy at all. I can see that being a necessity with something you are doing IRL, but it would destroy the fantasy. To me, a "gentle rape" fantasy doesn't mean the ability to say "No", as you describe the way you practice it. There are several things that make a "gentle rape" different from a real life rape:
1. The man is attractive, and you're attracted to him.
2. He does not slap, hit, or punch you, or torture you.
3. You are never in fear for your life.
4. And you end up liking it ha ha.
This message was edited 10/25/2016, 5:37 AM
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A woman
Actually tried this. She explained her fantasy on Craigslist...and it went horribly, horribly wrong. Obviously you don't do this crap on Craigslist BUT: it just doesn't work that way. Fantasy is one thing, but when it becomes reality it isn't what you want.
Rape is rape, no matter how you try to explain it away. Once it's actually happening - it's not cool.
Actually tried this. She explained her fantasy on Craigslist...and it went horribly, horribly wrong. Obviously you don't do this crap on Craigslist BUT: it just doesn't work that way. Fantasy is one thing, but when it becomes reality it isn't what you want.
Rape is rape, no matter how you try to explain it away. Once it's actually happening - it's not cool.
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Of course. I never said anything contradictory to this. I know the fantasy is completely different than the reality---of course, one controls certain aspects of a fantasy. Because I fantasize that way doesn't mean I'd ever really want to be raped. Admitting one fantasizes is not the same thing as explaining away a real rape.
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They belong together, because of their amorality more than just about anything else besides their physical attraction. Picture Rhett with Melanie? It would be a disaster for Melanie. Rhett knew that too, and since she was so decidedly not his type, and so unlike Scarlett, he respected her more than just about anybody else. You wouldn't think he would give somebody like Melanie the time of day, but since he's a very good judge of character, he knows that there is nothing phony about Melanie, and that she respects him without judging him. That in itself was a movelty.
And picture Scarlett with Ashley. Ashley is so far from amoral it's not even funny. He is so bound by family loyalty and adherence to expectations that he could not rebel or act out the way Scarlett did. He admired this in her, but if he was married to her he'd be miserable, and Scarlett would be also; she mainly wanted him because he was the one male she knew (till she met Rhett) who didn't respond to her flirting and fakeness, but mostly she wanted him because she couldn't have him.
Her father knows the score too, and tells her right at the beginning of the book that marrying Ashley would not make her happy.
No, Scarlett and Scarlett couldn't have found a better match. Rhett recognized this, but Scarlett stil thought she wanted Ashley instead. And Rhett hated Ashley for his perceived spinelessness.
And picture Scarlett with Ashley. Ashley is so far from amoral it's not even funny. He is so bound by family loyalty and adherence to expectations that he could not rebel or act out the way Scarlett did. He admired this in her, but if he was married to her he'd be miserable, and Scarlett would be also; she mainly wanted him because he was the one male she knew (till she met Rhett) who didn't respond to her flirting and fakeness, but mostly she wanted him because she couldn't have him.
Her father knows the score too, and tells her right at the beginning of the book that marrying Ashley would not make her happy.
No, Scarlett and Scarlett couldn't have found a better match. Rhett recognized this, but Scarlett stil thought she wanted Ashley instead. And Rhett hated Ashley for his perceived spinelessness.
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All this is true, but I'm still only thinking of the marital rape. I don't think Scarlett and Rhett being a good match excuses him from "taking" her, because no one, no matter how amoral they are, deserves to be raped. I realize I'm looking at this whole thing with a modern perspective, though. Of course audiences in 1936/1939 didn't see it this way.
This message was edited 10/24/2016, 8:55 PM
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The more I think about it, the more I don't think it was a rape at all. Oh well getting too OT I guess.
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for all we know ...
Since we don't actually see anything that happens after the door closes, they could have argued and fought for another hour and then had make-up sex. Or went to bed mad and felt better when they woke up and then had the make-up sex.
Since we don't actually see anything that happens after the door closes, they could have argued and fought for another hour and then had make-up sex. Or went to bed mad and felt better when they woke up and then had the make-up sex.
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LOL
It's actually a matter of debate between feminists whether or not it's a rape, so we could talk about this ad infinitum, I'm sure.
It's actually a matter of debate between feminists whether or not it's a rape, so we could talk about this ad infinitum, I'm sure.
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in one of the Anastasia Krupnik books ...
Very popular in the eighties and meant for junior-high or thereabouts, Anastasia wishes her seventh-grade English teacher would assign "Gone With the Wind" and her elderly male English teacher is perturbed. Anastasia insists that there's only one "damn" in the book, and that when Rhett carries Scarlett up the stairs, we don't see what happens afterward; maybe they played Scrabble in the bedroom. Privately Anastasia knows perfectly well what they did, and thinks that glamorous pair would never play Scrabble. "Ashley and Melanie ... THEY played Scrabble, the wimps."
Very popular in the eighties and meant for junior-high or thereabouts, Anastasia wishes her seventh-grade English teacher would assign "Gone With the Wind" and her elderly male English teacher is perturbed. Anastasia insists that there's only one "damn" in the book, and that when Rhett carries Scarlett up the stairs, we don't see what happens afterward; maybe they played Scrabble in the bedroom. Privately Anastasia knows perfectly well what they did, and thinks that glamorous pair would never play Scrabble. "Ashley and Melanie ... THEY played Scrabble, the wimps."
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Maybe he staggered into the bedroom, weaving wildly because of Scarlett's weight in his arms, said, "Damn, I know you never wanted to be hungry again, but this is ridiculous, you tub of lard", dropped her onto the bed, and then left, rubbing his aching arms. It was left out because a second "Damn" would have gotten the book banned in Boston.
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there were actually many more damsn ...
Because throwing your back out will do that to you. While Rhett fidgeted and swore, Scarlett pasted more pictures and notes into her Ashley scrapbook.
Because throwing your back out will do that to you. While Rhett fidgeted and swore, Scarlett pasted more pictures and notes into her Ashley scrapbook.
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I think I'm amoral. And proud of it.
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I've always been in love with him.
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Lots of rapists are loved by people. That doesn't make them any less rapists.
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I used to like the character a lot more, but now I don't. I don't know, things change.
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