New Post
Search
Help[Opinions] Salome, Sabbath and Odessa /names that feel Jewish but are not used by jews
I don't know how to open this post but:
what do you think of these names? How would you pronounce them? (I also would be curious to see where you're from and what your native language if you don't mind, because I feel like it matters when we talk about names)
(Also, feel free to share feel Jewish despite not being used by Jews)
Salome - reminds me of Salome Alexandra "Shlomzion" of Judea and I love this association however this name is very rare, it derives from the Hebrew word "shalom" and simply feels like it should be Jewish. Feels like it could used as an vernacular version of Shulamite or a female version of Solomon.
I like this name but regardless I am not a big fan of the English accent and pronunciation
Odessa - nothing Jewish in particular about the name itself but rather the history of the city. I love both Russian/Ukrainian (typically pronounced like Ah-de-sa but rather than O-de-sa ) I prefer the spelling Odessa over Odesa but I think both are nice.
(but the name was recorded in Roma communities which is interesting)
Sabbath - I know it's pronounced like Shabbat in Hebrew but it's just so strange that it's a Puritan name, it feels very weird how Jewish Christian names can be, I like the spelling but the pronunciation is strange to me. edit: to be clear it feels like something that a Jewish nonbinary person would make up
edit: I disagree with my previous statement about Sabbath, it does not feel Jewish anymore I don't think that wording it as criminal was the right way to describe it I mean it used to sound very Jewish to me because it reminded me of Shabtai and other Jewish names that have "Shabat" in them
what do you think of these names? How would you pronounce them? (I also would be curious to see where you're from and what your native language if you don't mind, because I feel like it matters when we talk about names)
(Also, feel free to share feel Jewish despite not being used by Jews)
Salome - reminds me of Salome Alexandra "Shlomzion" of Judea and I love this association however this name is very rare, it derives from the Hebrew word "shalom" and simply feels like it should be Jewish. Feels like it could used as an vernacular version of Shulamite or a female version of Solomon.
I like this name but regardless I am not a big fan of the English accent and pronunciation
Odessa - nothing Jewish in particular about the name itself but rather the history of the city. I love both Russian/Ukrainian (typically pronounced like Ah-de-sa but rather than O-de-sa ) I prefer the spelling Odessa over Odesa but I think both are nice.
(but the name was recorded in Roma communities which is interesting)
Sabbath - I know it's pronounced like Shabbat in Hebrew but it's just so strange that it's a Puritan name, it feels very weird how Jewish Christian names can be, I like the spelling but the pronunciation is strange to me. edit: to be clear it feels like something that a Jewish nonbinary person would make up
edit: I disagree with my previous statement about Sabbath, it does not feel Jewish anymore I don't think that wording it as criminal was the right way to describe it I mean it used to sound very Jewish to me because it reminded me of Shabtai and other Jewish names that have "Shabat" in them
This message was edited 9/29/2023, 4:04 AM
Archived Thread - replies disabled
2
Replies
I love the look of Salome, the audacity, the association with the Herod's stepdaughter who got the head of John the Baptist served to her on a silver platter, the Oscar Wilde play, the idea of a Salome "Sally", the Polish form Salomea (sa-law-MEH-a). Everything about it. EXCEPT the fact that my instinct is to pronounce it as SAL-ə-mee, which is dangerously close to salami.
Odessa reminds me - aside from the city - of names like Odette and Odysseus. But also maybe to the word odious? aw-DES-a.
Sabbath (which I'd pronounce SAB-əth) feels so edgy as a name in a vaguely annoying way. Like Salem. Sabbath is into death metal and skull decorations and their real name is, like, Sam.
Adam "feels" Jewish to me, but seems to be way rarer among Jews than Chava (Eve) - I wonder why!
Odessa reminds me - aside from the city - of names like Odette and Odysseus. But also maybe to the word odious? aw-DES-a.
Sabbath (which I'd pronounce SAB-əth) feels so edgy as a name in a vaguely annoying way. Like Salem. Sabbath is into death metal and skull decorations and their real name is, like, Sam.
Adam "feels" Jewish to me, but seems to be way rarer among Jews than Chava (Eve) - I wonder why!
2
Generally speaking the name Adam has never been overly popular in Jewish communities and I think that the reason that Adam is not so popular among Jews is because it simply means "human" in hebrew (?) But I am not so sure
It is (again) my speculation
It is (again) my speculation
1
I'll start by saying my husband is Jewish, and I'm familiar with Jewish culture.
I like Salome and Odessa. Salome is simply a variation of Shalom, which is relatively common among Jewish people. Personally I know two boys named Shalom.
Sabbath feels weird to me as a name, and honestly, a bit disrespectful of Jewish faith and culture.
I like Salome and Odessa. Salome is simply a variation of Shalom, which is relatively common among Jewish people. Personally I know two boys named Shalom.
Sabbath feels weird to me as a name, and honestly, a bit disrespectful of Jewish faith and culture.
5
What about Sabbath seems disrespectful?
2
Odessa: Meh. Decent name.
Salome: It's a good name, I guess. Shalom, Salome...if you want to put a more modern twist on the name, I guess. But then again, Shalom as a name has very strong Orthodox connotations to me.
Also, Manipura:
Shabbat/Sabbath/Shabbos/whatever is a very important holiday. It's not *the* most important (Yom Kippur bears that honour; yes, our most important holiday is a fast day that's supposed to be joyous), but I'd say that it's up there with Christmas or whatever. When Shabbat and another holiday, say Rosh Hashana, the new year, overlap, in general, Rosh Hashana's rules are modified to fit Shabbat, not the other way around.
Also, just because it's holy doesn't mean you'd name your kid that. Orthodox Jews don't say the name of God, and in fact spell it "G-d". "Hashem" is used in everyday speech. All those holidays are treated with great respect. Also, I mean, what if the kid turns out to be evil? You don't want it to be associated with something holy, powerful.
From what I can tell, Christianity doesn't treat names with the same respect as Orthodox Jews. According to Chabad, some orthodox Jews won't say the name of a guy named Shalom in the bathroom because it's one of God's names.
PS: Shabtai, according to Wikipedia, probably doesn't have any religious significance. But if it does, it's "someone born on Shabbat".
PPS: Yes, I chose to call myself "Deborah B." If you don't get the joke, look up the meaning of the name Deborah. Unfortunately, it's not my real name.
Salome: It's a good name, I guess. Shalom, Salome...if you want to put a more modern twist on the name, I guess. But then again, Shalom as a name has very strong Orthodox connotations to me.
Also, Manipura:
Shabbat/Sabbath/Shabbos/whatever is a very important holiday. It's not *the* most important (Yom Kippur bears that honour; yes, our most important holiday is a fast day that's supposed to be joyous), but I'd say that it's up there with Christmas or whatever. When Shabbat and another holiday, say Rosh Hashana, the new year, overlap, in general, Rosh Hashana's rules are modified to fit Shabbat, not the other way around.
Also, just because it's holy doesn't mean you'd name your kid that. Orthodox Jews don't say the name of God, and in fact spell it "G-d". "Hashem" is used in everyday speech. All those holidays are treated with great respect. Also, I mean, what if the kid turns out to be evil? You don't want it to be associated with something holy, powerful.
From what I can tell, Christianity doesn't treat names with the same respect as Orthodox Jews. According to Chabad, some orthodox Jews won't say the name of a guy named Shalom in the bathroom because it's one of God's names.
PS: Shabtai, according to Wikipedia, probably doesn't have any religious significance. But if it does, it's "someone born on Shabbat".
PPS: Yes, I chose to call myself "Deborah B." If you don't get the joke, look up the meaning of the name Deborah. Unfortunately, it's not my real name.
2
Reading my post again, I think disrespectful probably wasn't the right word. But I definitely feel a bit uncomfortable about people using this as a name. It's a sacred day with so much significance and symbolism for Jewish people, and using it as a name just seems... wild.
But I'm not going to speak for Jewish people here. I'm a christian myself and totally okay with using Easter as a name, for example (not that I'd ever use it). I do know, however, that my husband's Jewish family would not be alright with Shabbat or a variation being used as a name.
But I'm not going to speak for Jewish people here. I'm a christian myself and totally okay with using Easter as a name, for example (not that I'd ever use it). I do know, however, that my husband's Jewish family would not be alright with Shabbat or a variation being used as a name.
3
It sounds like they would also disapprove of it being used by Jews (like as שבתאי) and wouldn't consider it ethnic? Are they a particular denomination? What is their native language (if not Hebrew), and is it a word/concept in that language (as far as you know)?
This message was edited 9/30/2023, 3:28 AM
1
They would also disapprove of it being used by Jews, yes. Because the concept of using the name of a sacred time as a name for an individual is a strange concept to them, I think. They're (Ashkenazi) Haredi Jews (but my husband doesn't identify as being Haredi anymore) and their native languages are German and Russian. The German word would be Sabbat. Sabbatical is a word that's used in German. I can't be sure about Russian, my knowledge of Russian isn't big enough to say anything useful about that. German isn't my first language either, so I could be missing something there as well.
1
Ok. It looks like the Russian word for Saturday is related to Sabbath (it's Суббота), and the (old but not current?) word for Sunday basically meant "rest". I find this interesting, as a name/etymology nerd...Bob Dylan's Hebrew name was שבתאי (Shabtai); his paternal grandparents were Jews from Odessa, and I think his maternal grandparents would have been (Lithuanian) Ashkenazi Haredi Jews. So I am still a little confused, but I guess it is just a thing. Thanks for answering my questions!
This message was edited 9/30/2023, 10:33 AM
1
Because the Sabbath is a sacred and Holy day
2
That's part of the reason it's used as a name by religious people, though (sort of like Noel or Natalia were originally used in reference to Christmas babies)? Jews use it too, in Hebrew?
In English it's similar to "holiday" which is why sabbatical is "time off work" but the reason it'd be synonymous with Sunday or Saturday even in secular European use is because of traditional respect for religious observance of a day of rest. It's originally a loan word from Hebrew, but it's a very old multicultural one. I'm not understanding how that's disrepectful (unless there's a specific group/culture within these larger groups that sees any name relating to holidays or Hebrew-origin as disrepectful, or some connotation I'm missing, I guess, which is why I asked). I'd understand more why Jews might be weirded out by Adonai, for example.
In English it's similar to "holiday" which is why sabbatical is "time off work" but the reason it'd be synonymous with Sunday or Saturday even in secular European use is because of traditional respect for religious observance of a day of rest. It's originally a loan word from Hebrew, but it's a very old multicultural one. I'm not understanding how that's disrepectful (unless there's a specific group/culture within these larger groups that sees any name relating to holidays or Hebrew-origin as disrepectful, or some connotation I'm missing, I guess, which is why I asked). I'd understand more why Jews might be weirded out by Adonai, for example.
This message was edited 9/29/2023, 1:47 PM
3
I'm from the US and am a native English speaker; my surname is Jewish, but I'm not and neither were my parents.
The only reason I'd think a name sounded Jewish would be if I knew a lot of Jewish people used it...I guess I could say the word Zion reminds me of Jewish zionists, but as a name, it seems likely to be fundamentalist Christian or possibly Rastafarian, so I wouldn't say it feels Jewish.
I have only seen Salome used as a modern name by French speakers; however, when English speaking (Protestant) Christians talk about Salome in relation to John the Baptist, I've only heard them pronounce it as something like "sa-lo-MEH" or "suh-loo-MEH" or "sal-o-MAY" which is like the Italian/Portuguese pronunciations, according to BtN. It doesn't seem religious to me (although if Christians are using it, I'd guess they're Catholics rather than Protestants). It sounds pretty, but I'm not particularly fond of it.
I associate Odessa "oh-DESS-uh" with The Odyssey and places (the Ukrainian city but also places in the US); it sounds folksy/antique and dramatic/epic to me. I picture about the same person that I would when hearing Ophelia, Fay, Twila, Odetta. It doesn't strike me as religious; it reminds me of the ocean vaguely, but I think that's because of The Odyssey. I used to like it, but it reminds me unpleasantly of war lately.
Sabbath has been a common word in English (used by English speaking Christians) since the 1500s, so it doesn't seem odd to me as an English/Christian word name; as you mentioned, it's not pronounced the same in Hebrew. Shabbat / Shabbatai / Shabbethai / Shabbetai I'd expect to be Jewish, while Sabbat seems like it could be pagan; however, I wouldn't be that surprised if English speaking Jews actually have used Sabbath or if religious Christians have used Shabbethai (it's in the bible).
The only reason I'd think a name sounded Jewish would be if I knew a lot of Jewish people used it...I guess I could say the word Zion reminds me of Jewish zionists, but as a name, it seems likely to be fundamentalist Christian or possibly Rastafarian, so I wouldn't say it feels Jewish.
I have only seen Salome used as a modern name by French speakers; however, when English speaking (Protestant) Christians talk about Salome in relation to John the Baptist, I've only heard them pronounce it as something like "sa-lo-MEH" or "suh-loo-MEH" or "sal-o-MAY" which is like the Italian/Portuguese pronunciations, according to BtN. It doesn't seem religious to me (although if Christians are using it, I'd guess they're Catholics rather than Protestants). It sounds pretty, but I'm not particularly fond of it.
I associate Odessa "oh-DESS-uh" with The Odyssey and places (the Ukrainian city but also places in the US); it sounds folksy/antique and dramatic/epic to me. I picture about the same person that I would when hearing Ophelia, Fay, Twila, Odetta. It doesn't strike me as religious; it reminds me of the ocean vaguely, but I think that's because of The Odyssey. I used to like it, but it reminds me unpleasantly of war lately.
Sabbath has been a common word in English (used by English speaking Christians) since the 1500s, so it doesn't seem odd to me as an English/Christian word name; as you mentioned, it's not pronounced the same in Hebrew. Shabbat / Shabbatai / Shabbethai / Shabbetai I'd expect to be Jewish, while Sabbat seems like it could be pagan; however, I wouldn't be that surprised if English speaking Jews actually have used Sabbath or if religious Christians have used Shabbethai (it's in the bible).
This message was edited 9/29/2023, 10:33 AM
4
There's plenty of overlap among so-called Jewish and Christian names; makes sense, since the Torah is the New Testament and there is a lot of common history/mythology.
Salome's never been used with any real regularity. Probably the idea of a girl who did a sexy dance for her stepfather and his friends, urged on by her mother, and again, as Mom instructed, asked to be rewarded with a man's hed on a plate, is not a positive association.
Odessa feels very old-fashioned US to me. Neither Jewish nor Christian, but just an old-fashioned sound. There's a city in Texas called Odessa, and a tiny town here in Delaware called Odessa, and probably more Odessas in other places I don't know about.
Sabbath feels very Puritan; the Puritans set a lot of importance on the Sabbath day; it just happened to be a different day than the Jewish Sabbath.
Salome's never been used with any real regularity. Probably the idea of a girl who did a sexy dance for her stepfather and his friends, urged on by her mother, and again, as Mom instructed, asked to be rewarded with a man's hed on a plate, is not a positive association.
Odessa feels very old-fashioned US to me. Neither Jewish nor Christian, but just an old-fashioned sound. There's a city in Texas called Odessa, and a tiny town here in Delaware called Odessa, and probably more Odessas in other places I don't know about.
Sabbath feels very Puritan; the Puritans set a lot of importance on the Sabbath day; it just happened to be a different day than the Jewish Sabbath.
2
Salome hasn't been used in the US, but it's been well-used elsewhere.
And the Torah isn't the New Testament - the Torah, Quran, and Old Testament are similar, but not the same.
And the Torah isn't the New Testament - the Torah, Quran, and Old Testament are similar, but not the same.
This message was edited 9/28/2023, 5:35 PM
4
I agree with other comments about Sabbath... why is it "criminal" that Christians use it? If I understand correctly (not Christian) all Abrahamic religions have a 'sabbath' day which, even if it's not called that in their religion/language/tradition and even if it's often not always the same day, could be translated or equated to 'sabbath' and the word is even used as a kind of general term for these things in English. I've definitely heard Christians referring to 'sabbath' as a term/concept. So it sort of feels like a weird point to make.
Also, throwing an atheist spanner in the works, I'd totally use Sabbath as a name as an aggressively goth/metal homage, these days it definitely feels like the nickname a wane awkward teenage girl would give herself when her real name is Beth, or it could be a cute little nod to Black Sabbath if the parents are an old-school metalhead. And I think it'd be cute on a little black cat for all those reasons too. That's the vibe I get as someone who doesn't follow Abrahamic religion.
Odessa doesn't feel very 'Jewish' either to me, (although I admit I'm not sure what a 'Jewish' name is...) but, I've come across it by Americans and Mexicans mostly and once a Spanish girl, the impression I get from it is mostly what anyone in the US might call 'Hispanic' or something??
Salome, I don't know... but I really don't like it, so best left alone. It's so slimy, like gone-off sweaty salami. Not nice, in my opinion.
Also, throwing an atheist spanner in the works, I'd totally use Sabbath as a name as an aggressively goth/metal homage, these days it definitely feels like the nickname a wane awkward teenage girl would give herself when her real name is Beth, or it could be a cute little nod to Black Sabbath if the parents are an old-school metalhead. And I think it'd be cute on a little black cat for all those reasons too. That's the vibe I get as someone who doesn't follow Abrahamic religion.
Odessa doesn't feel very 'Jewish' either to me, (although I admit I'm not sure what a 'Jewish' name is...) but, I've come across it by Americans and Mexicans mostly and once a Spanish girl, the impression I get from it is mostly what anyone in the US might call 'Hispanic' or something??
Salome, I don't know... but I really don't like it, so best left alone. It's so slimy, like gone-off sweaty salami. Not nice, in my opinion.
4
I don't know why I decided to word it that way but I disagree with my statement right now, it kinda reminds me of Shabbtai that's why I thought it was very Jewish
1
Odessa does have a Jewish-Russian feel to it, imo.
Are you using the American pronunciation of Salome - sa-loo-me? That's not how it's pronounced in most countries. It's sal-o-may. I've only heard sa-loo-me in Christian churches, all the Salomes I've meet (a few) prnounced it the second way.
Are you using the American pronunciation of Salome - sa-loo-me? That's not how it's pronounced in most countries. It's sal-o-may. I've only heard sa-loo-me in Christian churches, all the Salomes I've meet (a few) prnounced it the second way.
2
Do you hear the "mee" ending in a particular region or denomination? (I know that's listed as the English pronunciation, but I'm curious because I've never heard it.)
This message was edited 9/29/2023, 9:14 AM
1
That's the way my dad and my mom pronounce it, they're Baptist. i'll ask my husband how he pronounces it today.
1
Those names don't "feel Jewish" to me. There are tons of names that I recognize as Hebrew in origin, that I don't think "feel Jewish," although they would not seem strange to me as the name of a Jewish person.
For context - I'm in the US and only speak English. My heritage - what little bit I know of it - is Christian, but I wasn't raised religious, and am not religious now.
I've never seen Sabbath as a name, but I wouldn't expect one to be a Jew. I wouldn't expect a Salome to be Jewish either, although I doubt I'd feel surprised - I've never seen the name used at all.
In the US a lot of Jews don't have "Jewish" names - even now, I think a lot of American Jews just prefer to use modern English names. Or mainstream English forms of Hebrew names. I know American Jews named April and Hayden. I've met Jews with Arabic names, who came from other parts of the world. Jews from Israel or who have dual citizenship, frequently have Hebrew names (that probably wouldn't be used by any Christians) - I see those a lot, too.
I confess I am too ignorant of European history, to recognize Odessa as potentially feeling Jewish because of the city.
"it feels almost criminal how Jewish Christian names can be" - I don't get that. Who might be harmed? Don't the two religions have overlapping canons? I think it'd be maybe weird for Christians (or non-Jewish American atheists) to use more modern Hebrew names like, say, Yarden or Kinneret, but I don't see why it would feel like an offense. Maybe you can educate me.
I can't say for sure that any names that "feel Jewish" to me, are not used by any Jews - I don't know how I would know for sure, if it wasn't used by Jews at all. I suspect that there are some Biblical names that are not used by religious Jews, that might be used by others - like Delilah would be one. But that doesn't "feel Jewish" so much as it just looks Hebrew-origin, to me.
For context - I'm in the US and only speak English. My heritage - what little bit I know of it - is Christian, but I wasn't raised religious, and am not religious now.
I've never seen Sabbath as a name, but I wouldn't expect one to be a Jew. I wouldn't expect a Salome to be Jewish either, although I doubt I'd feel surprised - I've never seen the name used at all.
In the US a lot of Jews don't have "Jewish" names - even now, I think a lot of American Jews just prefer to use modern English names. Or mainstream English forms of Hebrew names. I know American Jews named April and Hayden. I've met Jews with Arabic names, who came from other parts of the world. Jews from Israel or who have dual citizenship, frequently have Hebrew names (that probably wouldn't be used by any Christians) - I see those a lot, too.
I confess I am too ignorant of European history, to recognize Odessa as potentially feeling Jewish because of the city.
"it feels almost criminal how Jewish Christian names can be" - I don't get that. Who might be harmed? Don't the two religions have overlapping canons? I think it'd be maybe weird for Christians (or non-Jewish American atheists) to use more modern Hebrew names like, say, Yarden or Kinneret, but I don't see why it would feel like an offense. Maybe you can educate me.
I can't say for sure that any names that "feel Jewish" to me, are not used by any Jews - I don't know how I would know for sure, if it wasn't used by Jews at all. I suspect that there are some Biblical names that are not used by religious Jews, that might be used by others - like Delilah would be one. But that doesn't "feel Jewish" so much as it just looks Hebrew-origin, to me.
This message was edited 9/28/2023, 1:00 PM
4
(English isn't my first language) and I kind of regret choosing to word it that way in the first place, I have nothing against Christians naming their children sabbath I just thought it was a Jewish thing to do, it reminded me of names like Shabbatai.
I didn't mean the word criminal literally I just meant it in a different way (I was just being ignorant lol)
I didn't mean the word criminal literally I just meant it in a different way (I was just being ignorant lol)
3
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all connect to Abraham. Abraham wa the father of Jews, his son Ishmael was the father of Muslims, Isaac the father of Christians.
I can give you an example:
My daughter's name is Miriam. I'm Catholic, and I know several other Catholic Miriams. My husband was once at a playground and a Muslim man asked my husband why he gave our daughter a Muslim name. My husband explained that it was from the bible, citing the story of Moses. The man then asked "Are you Jewish?"
Sabbath was used by the Purtians because Christians, too, use the idea of Sabbath. I've often heard Sunday referred to as Sabbath, and several verses in the bible also refer to keeping the Sabbath.
I understand the discomfort that Jews might feel with Christians using names conneted to their faith; based on the amount of persecution; but the faiths are interconnected. The Torah, the Bible, and the Quran are extremely similar. I don't think it's strange at all, nor criminal.
I can give you an example:
My daughter's name is Miriam. I'm Catholic, and I know several other Catholic Miriams. My husband was once at a playground and a Muslim man asked my husband why he gave our daughter a Muslim name. My husband explained that it was from the bible, citing the story of Moses. The man then asked "Are you Jewish?"
Sabbath was used by the Purtians because Christians, too, use the idea of Sabbath. I've often heard Sunday referred to as Sabbath, and several verses in the bible also refer to keeping the Sabbath.
I understand the discomfort that Jews might feel with Christians using names conneted to their faith; based on the amount of persecution; but the faiths are interconnected. The Torah, the Bible, and the Quran are extremely similar. I don't think it's strange at all, nor criminal.
6
Following on from Miriam, I work in a very British-Asian area and regularly come across Maria and various related forms, usually but not always British-Pakistani Muslim girls - not always pronounced the same way, but I suspect related. I've always thought it was interesting and wondered where that came from.
1
Mariam, Maryam, etc is a super common Muslim name. Oftentimes I hear "My aunt/mom/sister is named Maryam." We have a dexent sized Muslim population.
1
I am not uncomfortable by Christians calling their kids Sabbath but just feels so strange
When I said "criminal" I was using it as a dramatization
also thank you for sharing this information I find this interesting
When I said "criminal" I was using it as a dramatization
also thank you for sharing this information I find this interesting
This message was edited 9/28/2023, 12:04 PM
1
Admittedly I've only known or heard of two or three Odessas, but they were all Jewish.
Also, I think it would be very strange to name a child 'hello,' so it makes sense to me why Jewish people would not use the name Salome.
To me, Sabbath doesn't seem Jewish. It sounds like a Puritan name.
Also, I think it would be very strange to name a child 'hello,' so it makes sense to me why Jewish people would not use the name Salome.
To me, Sabbath doesn't seem Jewish. It sounds like a Puritan name.
This message was edited 9/28/2023, 11:52 AM
2
Really? I thought that Odessa was an ultra-rare name.
1
It was in the US top 1000 for over 70 years...
I've met one Odessa. She was not Jewish. I guess she might have been born in the 1940s (in the southeastern US).
I've met one Odessa. She was not Jewish. I guess she might have been born in the 1940s (in the southeastern US).
This message was edited 9/28/2023, 1:17 PM
4