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Help[Facts] Re: Correct pronunciation of Layla
in reply to a message by Colleen
That assumes there is one correct Arabic pronunciation with no dialects. In fact, Arabic pronunciation (like English pronunciation) has changed over time, and is different in different regions where Arabic is spoken, so talking of an Arabic pronunciation without further qualification is meaningless. The situation is similar to that in English: Chaucer spoke his vowels very differently than us, and today, the pronunciation of Aunt or Schedule is very different on the two sides of the Atlantic, and claiming one is more correct than the other is pointless.
In Arabic, we have the added complication that the colloquial and formal languages differ in most regions. The most formal Arabic is used to recite the Quran, and I have provided a link in a different post in this thread to the word Laylat-ul-Qadr (night of power) appearing in Quranic recitations by very different people. The dipthong, [aj] in IPA, that is clearly heard there however becomes [eː] in most dialects, and in some dialects even raises to an [iː], but this is not a universal rule: Maltese arabic and some urban Tunisian dialects do maintain the dipthong; and in all regions, the dipthong will be known as the correct Quranic pronunciation.
So, it all boils down to what you mean by Arabic.
Disclaimer: I know no Arabic, whether Quranic dialectical, pre-Quranic dialects or modern ones, so caveat emptor.
In Arabic, we have the added complication that the colloquial and formal languages differ in most regions. The most formal Arabic is used to recite the Quran, and I have provided a link in a different post in this thread to the word Laylat-ul-Qadr (night of power) appearing in Quranic recitations by very different people. The dipthong, [aj] in IPA, that is clearly heard there however becomes [eː] in most dialects, and in some dialects even raises to an [iː], but this is not a universal rule: Maltese arabic and some urban Tunisian dialects do maintain the dipthong; and in all regions, the dipthong will be known as the correct Quranic pronunciation.
So, it all boils down to what you mean by Arabic.
Disclaimer: I know no Arabic, whether Quranic dialectical, pre-Quranic dialects or modern ones, so caveat emptor.
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Replies
The problem in the case of the Arabic language...
is that without any other specification (Moroccan Arabic, Lebanese Arabic, Syrian Arabic...), Arabic means what is known as Modern Standard Arabic (MSA), which only has three vocalic sounds ([a], [i], [u]), matching with the Arabic pronunciation passed on by the Quran.
Even if some Arabic speakers, when speaking in their Arabic dialects, pronounce ['lejla] (LAY-la, LAY rhyming with day or may), ['lela] (LEH-la) or ['lila] (LEE-la), those are not THE correct Arabic pronunciations (['lajla], LY-la, LY rhyming with my or by). Strictely, ['lejla] and ['lela] can't be correct MSA pronunciations because there is not [e] sound in its repertoire.
is that without any other specification (Moroccan Arabic, Lebanese Arabic, Syrian Arabic...), Arabic means what is known as Modern Standard Arabic (MSA), which only has three vocalic sounds ([a], [i], [u]), matching with the Arabic pronunciation passed on by the Quran.
Even if some Arabic speakers, when speaking in their Arabic dialects, pronounce ['lejla] (LAY-la, LAY rhyming with day or may), ['lela] (LEH-la) or ['lila] (LEE-la), those are not THE correct Arabic pronunciations (['lajla], LY-la, LY rhyming with my or by). Strictely, ['lejla] and ['lela] can't be correct MSA pronunciations because there is not [e] sound in its repertoire.
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There are only 2 diphtongs in arabic possible: au and ai. All other spellings are dialect forms.
In the Quran in Surah 92 the speaker also says "leil" like "ei" in "day" but it should be correctly "lail" like "my" and "by".
It seems that today no one speaks really "laila".
In song texts like Laila wa Lail of Umm Kalthoum you hear more "laila" like "my"
and in the lyrics of Sherine "A ya leil" you hear more "leila" like "day".
Please tell me whether you share this opinion with me.
In the Quran in Surah 92 the speaker also says "leil" like "ei" in "day" but it should be correctly "lail" like "my" and "by".
It seems that today no one speaks really "laila".
In song texts like Laila wa Lail of Umm Kalthoum you hear more "laila" like "my"
and in the lyrics of Sherine "A ya leil" you hear more "leila" like "day".
Please tell me whether you share this opinion with me.
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Today I had a conversation with a native speaker from Jordan. He said that it is easier to say "Leila" (like dayla insteda of laila like Lila).
Arabic Grammar says: When you put a fatha and then a sukun you will generate eiter "au" like in "fauqa" or "ai" like in "bait". In Englisch you would read "bite" for the arabic word "bait".
I have to correct myself: I listened again to Umm Kalthoum "Leila wa Leila" and heard also Leila (like Layla with ay like in day) perhaps due to her egyptian origin.
So the conclusion is that you will mostly not hear Laila like Lila but Leila and beit (bait = house) with the ay like in day.
Arabic Grammar says: When you put a fatha and then a sukun you will generate eiter "au" like in "fauqa" or "ai" like in "bait". In Englisch you would read "bite" for the arabic word "bait".
I have to correct myself: I listened again to Umm Kalthoum "Leila wa Leila" and heard also Leila (like Layla with ay like in day) perhaps due to her egyptian origin.
So the conclusion is that you will mostly not hear Laila like Lila but Leila and beit (bait = house) with the ay like in day.
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sorry to disapoint you in Arabic they have the letter Y which pronounce Ya and if you understand arabic you will see that Leila or layla or however you write it in arabic you will see that there is a Y in the name ليلى Y =ي.so it's not about Vocalic sound and yuou have to learn a lot about arabic.It's not an easy language as you think.
JAVI HERNANDEZ
JAVI HERNANDEZ
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What has to do the letter ya', which can have a semiconsonantic sound [j] like in this case, with the pronunciation of the vowel in the first syllable?
Nobody has denied that there is a sound [j] in the Arabic pronunciation of Layla. The problem is if the vocalic sound is [a] (['lajla], LY-la), as the MSA pronunciation marks, or [e] (['lejla], LAY-la) as you are claiming, which can be the your dialectal Moroccan (specifically Al-Hocemian) Arabic pronunciation), but not THE Arabic pronunciation.
Nobody has denied that there is a sound [j] in the Arabic pronunciation of Layla. The problem is if the vocalic sound is [a] (['lajla], LY-la), as the MSA pronunciation marks, or [e] (['lejla], LAY-la) as you are claiming, which can be the your dialectal Moroccan (specifically Al-Hocemian) Arabic pronunciation), but not THE Arabic pronunciation.
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no sorry to disappoint you but I studied Arabic , there is no problem .I'll explain to you how it works , for example ليلى in Arabic never changes everybody Moroccan or Egyptian or whoever , they write it like that even Chinese when they write Arabic , and the pronounciation is the same whenever you go.but it changes when we write it in latin there is people who write it Layla or Leila or laila or laela.
I agree with what you're saying about the vocalic sound but it's not the case in Arabic you have to learn first to speak it then you'll understand what I am speaking about sweetie.
and to inform you in Al hoceima or AlHucemas or Villa san jorgo we don't speak Arabic , we speak Amazigh and Spanish and I am sure that you know nothing about this language.search in internet and you'll see how difficult is.
I really respect you but you should learn more about languages.It's better to learn from somebody who live with the language.
bye bye
I agree with what you're saying about the vocalic sound but it's not the case in Arabic you have to learn first to speak it then you'll understand what I am speaking about sweetie.
and to inform you in Al hoceima or AlHucemas or Villa san jorgo we don't speak Arabic , we speak Amazigh and Spanish and I am sure that you know nothing about this language.search in internet and you'll see how difficult is.
I really respect you but you should learn more about languages.It's better to learn from somebody who live with the language.
bye bye
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I also studied (classical) Arabic
and I know enough about Amazigh, because the Amazigh community in Catalonia is important and their speakers have specific problems when learning Catalan or Spanish. Funnily, I have one of the few copies of the Catalan-Amazigh dictionary La llengua rifenya - Tutlayt tarifiyt, by Abdelghani El Molghy et al. (and I know personally Mr. El Molghy).
Since you seem to be specially obtuse and deniing facts, I will resume here the facts, for clarity:
1. The name is spelled áíáì in Arabic. The spelling is the same in all the Arabic speaking countries.
2. The Arabic language is commonly written without vowels, which can be added as marks in order to clarify and fix the correct pronunciation (as in the case of the Quran, for instance).
3. The classical Arabic and the Modern Standard Arabic (MSA) have three and only three vocalic sounds: [a], [i] and [u].
4. The vocalic sounds [e] and [o] appear in some Arabic dialects.
5. Because of 3. (and 4.), in MSA the only possible diphtong is [aj] (commonly represented in figurated English spelling as Y) and not [ej] (commonly representend in figurated English spelling as AY).
6. In Arabic, there are dialectal differences in the pronunciation of words and names. ãÑíã, MRYM, is pronounced [ma'rjam] in MSA but [me'rjem] in Moroccan Arabic.
7. When writting in Latin alphabet, the spelling reflects the conventions from the language of reception: äæÑ, NWR ['nur] is transcripted as Noor in English, Nour in French and Nur in Italian/Spanish/Catalan...
8. The Arabic name ['lajla] has been commonly transcripted as Layla or Laila.
9. The Arabic name ['lajla] has been adapted in Persian as ['lejla], commonly transcripted as Leyla or Leila.
10. In Modern English, the group AY is read [ej] instead of [aj] (day, may).
11. Because of 10., in Modern English, the spelling Layla is read ['lejla].
12. When using English figurated spelling for pronunciations, LY is usually used to represent [laj] and LAY is usually used to represent [lej], by consistence with day/may and my/by and other common words in English.
and I know enough about Amazigh, because the Amazigh community in Catalonia is important and their speakers have specific problems when learning Catalan or Spanish. Funnily, I have one of the few copies of the Catalan-Amazigh dictionary La llengua rifenya - Tutlayt tarifiyt, by Abdelghani El Molghy et al. (and I know personally Mr. El Molghy).
Since you seem to be specially obtuse and deniing facts, I will resume here the facts, for clarity:
1. The name is spelled áíáì in Arabic. The spelling is the same in all the Arabic speaking countries.
2. The Arabic language is commonly written without vowels, which can be added as marks in order to clarify and fix the correct pronunciation (as in the case of the Quran, for instance).
3. The classical Arabic and the Modern Standard Arabic (MSA) have three and only three vocalic sounds: [a], [i] and [u].
4. The vocalic sounds [e] and [o] appear in some Arabic dialects.
5. Because of 3. (and 4.), in MSA the only possible diphtong is [aj] (commonly represented in figurated English spelling as Y) and not [ej] (commonly representend in figurated English spelling as AY).
6. In Arabic, there are dialectal differences in the pronunciation of words and names. ãÑíã, MRYM, is pronounced [ma'rjam] in MSA but [me'rjem] in Moroccan Arabic.
7. When writting in Latin alphabet, the spelling reflects the conventions from the language of reception: äæÑ, NWR ['nur] is transcripted as Noor in English, Nour in French and Nur in Italian/Spanish/Catalan...
8. The Arabic name ['lajla] has been commonly transcripted as Layla or Laila.
9. The Arabic name ['lajla] has been adapted in Persian as ['lejla], commonly transcripted as Leyla or Leila.
10. In Modern English, the group AY is read [ej] instead of [aj] (day, may).
11. Because of 10., in Modern English, the spelling Layla is read ['lejla].
12. When using English figurated spelling for pronunciations, LY is usually used to represent [laj] and LAY is usually used to represent [lej], by consistence with day/may and my/by and other common words in English.
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look all what you said is BS tharifit is not ARABIC amazigh is not arabic and you know nothing you just bla bla bla ok i was speaking about arabic not dialects so Moroccan dialect or a,y other dialect don't respect the terms of arabic and rules , so all what you said is about sound and vowels arabic has no vowels it's just marks that we put under or on the word.
so please try to ask you rifian name if he born here or he's an arabic immigrated to alhoceima
so please don't try to do someone who knows everything
thanks
so please try to ask you rifian name if he born here or he's an arabic immigrated to alhoceima
so please don't try to do someone who knows everything
thanks
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I should really not react to this. Oh well...
Please stop being so rude. While Lumia constantly reinforces her argumentation with facts, all you do is insult her. On this board Lumia is known for her astonishing knowledge of several languages.
It is neither polite nor fair nor does it make you look good and well-informed to always accuse her of knowing nothing and just going "bla bla bla".
Please stop being so rude. While Lumia constantly reinforces her argumentation with facts, all you do is insult her. On this board Lumia is known for her astonishing knowledge of several languages.
It is neither polite nor fair nor does it make you look good and well-informed to always accuse her of knowing nothing and just going "bla bla bla".
This message was edited 6/6/2010, 1:46 PM
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I didn't insult her , but i was giving her facts and the real language , I speak Arabic and she doesn't , she take things from GOOGLE.I speak Spanish , french , English , dutch, Portuguese and Amazigh.so I was trying to correct her facts but she believes that she knows everything , so I was trying to stop her thinking that.
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This is my last reply to you
Nobody said that Amazigh (in the variant Tarifit or in general) is Arabic. So, read correctly the posts before to reply and don't put words in other mouths.
For the questions about Arabic vowels (sound) plus Arabic vowels marks (spelling) and dialects, I stated very clearly in my other posts and you can check its accuracy in some reliable basical books, as Modern Arabic: Structures, Functions and Varieties, by Clive Holes, or Elementary Modern Standard Arabic, by Peter F. Abboud et al.
I would like to see academical and bibliographical proof of all your affirmations.
My former student (and his family) is born in Al-hoceima, not an Arabic immigrant to the city or the area.
Sentences like "all what you said is BS" or "you know nothing you just bla bla bla" are absolutely rude and rudeness is not welcome when discussing in this board.
Nobody said that Amazigh (in the variant Tarifit or in general) is Arabic. So, read correctly the posts before to reply and don't put words in other mouths.
For the questions about Arabic vowels (sound) plus Arabic vowels marks (spelling) and dialects, I stated very clearly in my other posts and you can check its accuracy in some reliable basical books, as Modern Arabic: Structures, Functions and Varieties, by Clive Holes, or Elementary Modern Standard Arabic, by Peter F. Abboud et al.
I would like to see academical and bibliographical proof of all your affirmations.
My former student (and his family) is born in Al-hoceima, not an Arabic immigrant to the city or the area.
Sentences like "all what you said is BS" or "you know nothing you just bla bla bla" are absolutely rude and rudeness is not welcome when discussing in this board.
This message was edited 6/3/2010, 10:03 AM
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